I am no expert on this, but I think that the Fionn MacCumhaill stories are older than the Cuchulainn stories. I would like to know what others think about this. I think that perhaps the Fionn stories are presented as later because they were easier to come from in order to make the transition from the old to Christianity. I think that they might be older because they are set in the woods, and the Fianna are all the time moving with the hunt. They seem to be on foot everywhere they go. The Fionn stories seem older to me because they seem to deal more directly with the mysteries of nature than do the Cuchulainn stories. The Fianna seem very much closer to the Tuatha de Danaan, always meeting up with them and exchanging some mystery with them.
There do not seem to be many chariots in the Fionn stories. Fionn, himself, is not trained in horsemanship. The Fianna's main companions are always the dogs. Perhaps, even the weapons might to be of more natural materials. Bronze is rarely mentioned; and iron is also rarely mentioned in the Fionn stories.
It will be interesting to find out what others think about this. Thanks for the forum,

I've never thought about this, but now that you've brought it up (along with some very good points about features that are and aren't in the stories), you've got me wondering too! There are some radical ideas out there suggesting that several basic elements in the legends of King Arthur are actually based on folk memories from as long ago as the neolithic and early bronze ages. I don't see why this shouldn't be the case, considering the longevity of some oral traditions. So why not the Fionn/Fianna stories?

I am glad that you responded to this question. The Fionn stories do seem a little like the Robin Hood stories. What you say makes sense. This would make the Fionn MacCumhaill stories both older and newer. Older in the sense that they might be folk or oral tradition from a long time ago and yet newer because they are presented after the Cuchulainn stories. I would think that we still have to face the question of what happened to all those horses and chariots unless they were always in the sky and not of earth at all. Still the Cuchulainn stories seem to know about horses and chariots and have an intimate connection with them. The Fianna stories seem to have “an other worldly” connection to horses making use of them mainly in play and not in work or fight. I wouldn’t mind a critical analysis of this.

I had a good talk with Eadhmonn this last weekend about which were older the Fionn MacCumhaill stories or the Cuchulainn stories. Here is what he said: the Fionn MacCumhaill stories are the stories told by young boys who long to be out in the woods. You have to be pretty young to listen to these stories. Young boys will look to the woods for their adventures. The Cuchulainn stories are the stories told over the fires of young men. Young men will look to their heroes. The Cuchulainn stories are the stories of young men telling the stories of their heroes. The heroes are the older men. They tell the stories of the gods of light and almost animal. Heroes look to the gods and animals. Old men tell the stories of half animal and half human. These are the stories of Lugh. That’s all I have to say about that.
Barbara: what happened to the horses and horsemanship? Eadhmonn: All of this was ameliorated. Barbara: you mean absorbed back into the land. Eadhmonn: yes.

Well...It makes sense that certain types of stories would be better suited to different interest groups, but that doesn't really address the question of which stories are older and why different cycles of stories have features that could represent not only different historical eras, but possibly different cultures.

I would suggest that you might bring this topic to the Irish Stones Yahoo discussion group, which is associated with this site. There is a lot more frequent exchanges of ideas and expertise there than there is at this forum.

I'm intrigued by this discussion. There is a belief, reported in our book, that the Táin, although it mentions such things as chariots, is actually a Stone Age myth. I believe that the stories were woven as much to carry scientific data and astronomical information as to entertain and enthrall.

Barbara asks an interesting question in relation to the Finn cycle. There is reference in the Dindshenchas to the clearing of forests for the construction of the great passage-tombs. We know, from archaeological texts, that there was a change from hunter-led society to farming-led society at the time the mounds were built in the Boyne Valley.

What is the hard data / expert opinion which places the Finn Cycle after the Táin etc.??



Well, I too am a long time member of Irish-Stones and agree that there is a more frequent exchange. I really don't know why this forum is not as active as others, especially since there are 2,900 members. I've been trying to encourage people here. I suppose if more people like yourself come back more regularly, we'll be off to a good start!!

I like this forum fine. I certainly agree with you, Anthony, in regard to these stories encoding the scientific and technical knowledge of the sky works. We, like you, continue to use them as such. I think when Eadhmonn was talking about who would be the more interested in which stories, he was referring to which age group would be learning to work with which stories. What he was saying, I think, is that the Fionn stories are considered younger because they are for a younger audience. Certainly from your book now, we can see that the high man (Orion) Lough, Cuchulainn, Fionn MacCumhaill and Patrick have lots and lots in common. I still have the idea that the Fionn stories are older.

I asked Peter Berresford Ellis to comment on this discussion. As usual, he has the expertise. Here what he has to say:
Very easy question to answer. The Cúchulainn stories which constitute the
`Ulster Cycle' (also called the `red Branch Cycle' are the oldest stories,
probably transmitted orally for a thousand years before being committed to
writing. The basic texts survive in the Lebor nhUidre (compiled from
earlier texts before 1108) and the Lebor Laighnech (compiled after 1150). As
Prof Jackson entitled his analysis they present `a Window on the Iron Age'.
The greatest narrative is the epic `The Táin' regarded as the Irish
`Illiad'. So these stories were composed before the 5th Century BC.

While the Fionn Mac Cumhail stories, sometimes called the Fenian Cycle and
sometime the Ossianic Cycle, are considered to start dating from the 3rd
Century AD. The first bold synthesis of the tales, the eight part parts of
the cycle, appeared in the Acallam na Senórach (composed 1175).

While the Ulster Cycle was considered `high' literature among the Irish in
medieval times, it was the Ulster Cycle that became very popular at that
time with the ordinary people. Whether the tales of the Fianna stirred
people's hopes at a time when the Normans were invading and carving out
their personal fiefdoms in Ireland, is a moot question. I think it might
explain the popularity. By the way, the Arthurian tales were popular in
Irish language adaptations at the same period and indeed some original
Arthurian tales appear to have been composed in Irish which are excluded
from the general cannon of Arthurian tales because no Arthurian scholars
seem to know enough Irish to realise that they exist. Even back in 1955
Prof. Gerard Murphy had identified 25 Arthurian tales in Irish from the
period.

Nevertheless, Arthur still played second fiddle to the popularity of the
Fionn Mac Cumhaill tales.

By the way, the question of chariots which someone seems to regard as a
myth. Why don't they read Julius Caesar's account of how the British Celts
really harassed his legions with their war chariots, or the accounts of the
celtic chariot burials. Certainly, by the time the Fionn stories were
composed, chariots were out of fashion as a war machine but back in the days
when Cúchullain was about, they certainly were the last word in warfare.

Hope this helps. Best as always - Peter

I just wanted to note that this is another time when Ireland could be loosing more of its precious landscape (gold, horses and chariots). It seems there was about 800 years between the Cuchulainn stories and the stories of Fionn Mac Cumhaill. There was about 800 years between the popularity of the Fionn Mac Cumhaill stories and now. There is now 2 times 800 between now and when Patrick arrived in Ireland. This seems so relavent to me with what is happening with Tara. Do you think there is a connection?